Interview with Roger Kahn
Award winning author of numerous books and articles on Jackie Robinson and baseball. Kahn was also a personal friend of Robinson and his wife.
”Roger Kahn, the author of 20 books and hundreds of articles for newspapers and national magazines, is widely regarded as America’s greatest living sportswriter. Kahn joined the staff of the New York Herald Tribune as a copy boy in 1948 and rose quickly to the position of baseball writer, taking over the Dodgers beat in 1952. He later served as a sports editor of Newsweek, editor-at-large of The Saturday Evening Post and a columnist for Esquire. His 1972 classic, The Boys of Summer, was named the best baseball book of all time by the editors of Sports Illustrated.” - Rickey and Robinson, a book by Roger Kahn
The Wall Street Journal book review of Kahn’s most recent book Rickey & Robinson: “Roger Kahn is one of the last witnesses still writing who knew Jackie Robinson and the other Dodgers. Rickey is long dead, and Robinson is long dead, and Reese, Campanella, Snider and virtually everyone else around that Dodgers team are dead. The Dodgers have been in Los Angeles for 56 years. Mr. Kahn is 86 years old but is still here to tell the tale, which he does with grace, gusto and his unique perspective.” (source: wsj.com)
”Roger Kahn, the author of 20 books and hundreds of articles for newspapers and national magazines, is widely regarded as America’s greatest living sportswriter. Kahn joined the staff of the New York Herald Tribune as a copy boy in 1948 and rose quickly to the position of baseball writer, taking over the Dodgers beat in 1952. He later served as a sports editor of Newsweek, editor-at-large of The Saturday Evening Post and a columnist for Esquire. His 1972 classic, The Boys of Summer, was named the best baseball book of all time by the editors of Sports Illustrated.” - Rickey and Robinson, a book by Roger Kahn
The Wall Street Journal book review of Kahn’s most recent book Rickey & Robinson: “Roger Kahn is one of the last witnesses still writing who knew Jackie Robinson and the other Dodgers. Rickey is long dead, and Robinson is long dead, and Reese, Campanella, Snider and virtually everyone else around that Dodgers team are dead. The Dodgers have been in Los Angeles for 56 years. Mr. Kahn is 86 years old but is still here to tell the tale, which he does with grace, gusto and his unique perspective.” (source: wsj.com)
In your book Rickey and Robinson, you mentioned that prior to the signing of Jackie Robinson, Americas movement toward integration in baseball was so slow that it was barely discernible. How did the signing of Robinson fuel the progress towards integration?
Well, it was to use a word that is overused. It was revolutionary. There had been no blacks in organized ball, in the Major League ball, in the late 19th century. And, it was an unwritten, unspoken, reality of baseball that was big leagues of whites only. So you go through the 1890s, through WWI and the inconsiderable changes that made the United States. They began to get a general movement towards civil rights … by that time which is about 6 years after [Pee Wee] Reese joined the Dodgers Reese had become a quite team leader, and some of the players, Dixie Walker, who would later change completely, and others, worked up a petition which said in the fact that if you bring up the black guy, we’ll go on strike. Walker, a few others, walked around getting signatures on this petition. And they came to Reese, and what he said, was I just got out of the Navy, I got a new baby, I don’t have any money, I can’t run the risk of a strike. And he said to me later thats what he said. Cause that was not so typical to say. What he felt was as a quietly serious Christian, he had the power to put himself in the shoes of the other person. And he said “What would I feel if I were sent into the colored leagues? Well would I want them to see the color of my skin? Not really, I’d want them to see that I was a pretty darn good shortstop. And so I had to take a look at Robinson as a ballplayer, and later as a person. And curiously as you know Robinson was the shortstop in the Negro Leagues for the Kansas City Monarchs. And it was a weakness in his overall play was his throwing arm. He did not really have a good, Major-League shortstop’s arm … So they moved Robinson to first base, he had never played first base before, making it … But he played as a first baseman in Montreal. Then he was coming up to Brooklyn. Well they had some pretty big, powerful hitters at first base. Gil Hodges was coming along … They had a few … Anyway, as a ballplayer Robinson has great speed, is a phenomenal baserunner, his arm was ok for second and third. When he would move over to third towards the end of his career, he would get rid of the ball very quickly he had great hands. And more than one person from that team would say, he didn’t have the biggest reach, Robinson, but what he could reach, he held. And I think one year at second base, he made like 8 errors in one season ... So anyways go on with the next question.
What qualities did Branch Rickey see in Jackie Robinson that made him realize he was the right person to break though the color barrier?
I asked Rickey that question, but I never got an absolutely straight answer. He said adventure, adventure, I watched this guy play, I watched this fellow play. And He was all adventure. He never did a clinical scouting breakdown. I think that there these intangibles for Robinson rising to clutch situations, Robinson dealing with the abuse that he was going to have hurled at him. In truth, the Dodgers had thought of Don Newcombe, who probably had more natural baseball ability than Robinson, but when they noticed the age, they said no 19 year old will be able to put up to all the pressure, and bigotry, and the harsh words of prejudice that will be hurled at this first black. So, Rickey played Robinson, played first … anything he reached, he held. That’s about it, I’d say if you were to have a full scouting report you would say hands A, range B to B+, throwing arm B, competitive fire A+, when you contend with the various pressures… He was singing somebody to be a pioneer. And so very dramatically, Rickey threw a lot of bad words at Robinson and said what would you do? .. And Robinson said “Are you looking for someone who doesn't have the courage to fight back?” And Rickey very memorably said, “No I’m looking for someone who has the courage not to fight back.” So you know, thats sort of an intangible … So he came to Brooklyn in 47, moved to second in 48, and played to about 57, you know he was a team leader, and if he would have been white, he would have been a manager somewhere, there were no black managers back then. He got on the umpires … There was a lot of pretty rough, back and forth bench jockeying. I’ll just give you this, Robinson came up to hit, and Dourocher was managing the Giants and coaching third base, and as Robinson stepped in, Leo shouted … my … to you Robinson. And Jack didn’t step out he just said … So this is a pretty high level of needling. So while youre needling and coming up with these one line zingers, you gotta think, oh what’s he gonna throw, am I gonna go to right, am I gonna pull. Very very complicated and mentally very difficult.
What are some examples leadership that Jackie displayed both on and off the baseball field, in the civil rights movement as well?
On the field, he was a leader because he was such an aggressive player. Stole home I don’t have the numbers but probably one year he stole home seven or eight times. Ever see him steal home? It’s really exciting. Picks up the team. He was barking at umpires. I’ll give you an example, the Dodgers were playing the Boston Braves … One day Robinson called me, we were in St. Louis, I stayed at the Chase hotel which was the farthest part. Have you ever been to St. Louis? Well, it’s a large park on the west side of the city and it was a first-class hotel with a swimming pool, no blacks allowed in the pool. When they finally let blacks into the hotel, no blacks were allowed in the dining room. So it was a segregated city. Players who supported Robinson stood up to the segregation how well he played against the Cardinals. And that impressed him more than any words, I think it impressed the players more than any other words. So leadership, one year he was a National League batting champion, you can’t tell what a great base-runner he is from stolen bases because he was not a base stealer with numbers like Maury Wills, but he would fake steal. Then, go and he had an incredible ability to rebel the pitcher and the pitcher would say is he gonna he go or is he not gonna go and then he throws a fat fastball. Seeing Robinson on the bases, is absolutely fascinating and it’s nothing that numbers can illustrate. You don’t have a statistic for fake steals at second base, but Robinson can totally disrupt him as a base-runner.
What about off the field leadership?
Well I was just thinking about that, we go from Brooklyn, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, and after a while, the fellas would pretty much do what they’d like. Jackie liked the horses. And Pee Wee liked the horses. So they would go to the racetrack together. But it wasn't a conscious thing. Jackie liked to play Bridge, Pee Wee liked to play Bridge. So they would go play cards together. But it was not … Jackie saying ‘well I’m going to do this with a white player, and break down our barrier. They’re just two things he liked, and like I say he and Reese liked a lot of the same things. This is two years ago my friend Shotgun Shuba who played ball … In his home, he had a photograph that showed Jackie Robinson crossing home plate, shaking a white players hand, and he said to me, that is the handshake of the century.”
What obstacles and/or setbacks did Branch Rickey and Jackie face at the start of integration, and how did they overcome them?
Well the setbacks were you know, enormous! Rachael Robinson told me they bought an apartment … and she used to where Jackie was an exciting player … She used to leave outside the kitchen door for the neighborhood kids. “Ms. Robinson can I have an apple, Ms. Robinson can I have a pear?” “Surely.” There was no signs of anti-black feeling … So Rickey knew of course that he was sending a player … not to Georgia.
What changes in baseball do we still see today that are mostly related to the success of Robinson?
Well most directly is you have a black manager. In time you will have some black executives throughout baseball. Hasn't happened quickly. But he opened up … and he bore up a bit of conscious, and our society took a step forward, and didn’t take that step back.
What other ways does his legacy do we still see today?
There was a time when baseball, like the Supreme Court, and other important American Institutions needed black faces. And when the face was needed, the dark face they came for was Jackie. Suppose he had failed. Suppose he hit .202. I think still … the fact that he was not going to hit .202. He had never been a failure at anything. He was court marshalled in the army. And he was right, and the army was wrong. Football, great success, college … He said once he retired, “I got C’s. In order to keep my scholarship at UCLA, I had to play sports. Ran track, shot baskets, ran the football, whatever they wanted me to do. But mainly it was about Jackie winning games.”
Well, it was to use a word that is overused. It was revolutionary. There had been no blacks in organized ball, in the Major League ball, in the late 19th century. And, it was an unwritten, unspoken, reality of baseball that was big leagues of whites only. So you go through the 1890s, through WWI and the inconsiderable changes that made the United States. They began to get a general movement towards civil rights … by that time which is about 6 years after [Pee Wee] Reese joined the Dodgers Reese had become a quite team leader, and some of the players, Dixie Walker, who would later change completely, and others, worked up a petition which said in the fact that if you bring up the black guy, we’ll go on strike. Walker, a few others, walked around getting signatures on this petition. And they came to Reese, and what he said, was I just got out of the Navy, I got a new baby, I don’t have any money, I can’t run the risk of a strike. And he said to me later thats what he said. Cause that was not so typical to say. What he felt was as a quietly serious Christian, he had the power to put himself in the shoes of the other person. And he said “What would I feel if I were sent into the colored leagues? Well would I want them to see the color of my skin? Not really, I’d want them to see that I was a pretty darn good shortstop. And so I had to take a look at Robinson as a ballplayer, and later as a person. And curiously as you know Robinson was the shortstop in the Negro Leagues for the Kansas City Monarchs. And it was a weakness in his overall play was his throwing arm. He did not really have a good, Major-League shortstop’s arm … So they moved Robinson to first base, he had never played first base before, making it … But he played as a first baseman in Montreal. Then he was coming up to Brooklyn. Well they had some pretty big, powerful hitters at first base. Gil Hodges was coming along … They had a few … Anyway, as a ballplayer Robinson has great speed, is a phenomenal baserunner, his arm was ok for second and third. When he would move over to third towards the end of his career, he would get rid of the ball very quickly he had great hands. And more than one person from that team would say, he didn’t have the biggest reach, Robinson, but what he could reach, he held. And I think one year at second base, he made like 8 errors in one season ... So anyways go on with the next question.
What qualities did Branch Rickey see in Jackie Robinson that made him realize he was the right person to break though the color barrier?
I asked Rickey that question, but I never got an absolutely straight answer. He said adventure, adventure, I watched this guy play, I watched this fellow play. And He was all adventure. He never did a clinical scouting breakdown. I think that there these intangibles for Robinson rising to clutch situations, Robinson dealing with the abuse that he was going to have hurled at him. In truth, the Dodgers had thought of Don Newcombe, who probably had more natural baseball ability than Robinson, but when they noticed the age, they said no 19 year old will be able to put up to all the pressure, and bigotry, and the harsh words of prejudice that will be hurled at this first black. So, Rickey played Robinson, played first … anything he reached, he held. That’s about it, I’d say if you were to have a full scouting report you would say hands A, range B to B+, throwing arm B, competitive fire A+, when you contend with the various pressures… He was singing somebody to be a pioneer. And so very dramatically, Rickey threw a lot of bad words at Robinson and said what would you do? .. And Robinson said “Are you looking for someone who doesn't have the courage to fight back?” And Rickey very memorably said, “No I’m looking for someone who has the courage not to fight back.” So you know, thats sort of an intangible … So he came to Brooklyn in 47, moved to second in 48, and played to about 57, you know he was a team leader, and if he would have been white, he would have been a manager somewhere, there were no black managers back then. He got on the umpires … There was a lot of pretty rough, back and forth bench jockeying. I’ll just give you this, Robinson came up to hit, and Dourocher was managing the Giants and coaching third base, and as Robinson stepped in, Leo shouted … my … to you Robinson. And Jack didn’t step out he just said … So this is a pretty high level of needling. So while youre needling and coming up with these one line zingers, you gotta think, oh what’s he gonna throw, am I gonna go to right, am I gonna pull. Very very complicated and mentally very difficult.
What are some examples leadership that Jackie displayed both on and off the baseball field, in the civil rights movement as well?
On the field, he was a leader because he was such an aggressive player. Stole home I don’t have the numbers but probably one year he stole home seven or eight times. Ever see him steal home? It’s really exciting. Picks up the team. He was barking at umpires. I’ll give you an example, the Dodgers were playing the Boston Braves … One day Robinson called me, we were in St. Louis, I stayed at the Chase hotel which was the farthest part. Have you ever been to St. Louis? Well, it’s a large park on the west side of the city and it was a first-class hotel with a swimming pool, no blacks allowed in the pool. When they finally let blacks into the hotel, no blacks were allowed in the dining room. So it was a segregated city. Players who supported Robinson stood up to the segregation how well he played against the Cardinals. And that impressed him more than any words, I think it impressed the players more than any other words. So leadership, one year he was a National League batting champion, you can’t tell what a great base-runner he is from stolen bases because he was not a base stealer with numbers like Maury Wills, but he would fake steal. Then, go and he had an incredible ability to rebel the pitcher and the pitcher would say is he gonna he go or is he not gonna go and then he throws a fat fastball. Seeing Robinson on the bases, is absolutely fascinating and it’s nothing that numbers can illustrate. You don’t have a statistic for fake steals at second base, but Robinson can totally disrupt him as a base-runner.
What about off the field leadership?
Well I was just thinking about that, we go from Brooklyn, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, and after a while, the fellas would pretty much do what they’d like. Jackie liked the horses. And Pee Wee liked the horses. So they would go to the racetrack together. But it wasn't a conscious thing. Jackie liked to play Bridge, Pee Wee liked to play Bridge. So they would go play cards together. But it was not … Jackie saying ‘well I’m going to do this with a white player, and break down our barrier. They’re just two things he liked, and like I say he and Reese liked a lot of the same things. This is two years ago my friend Shotgun Shuba who played ball … In his home, he had a photograph that showed Jackie Robinson crossing home plate, shaking a white players hand, and he said to me, that is the handshake of the century.”
What obstacles and/or setbacks did Branch Rickey and Jackie face at the start of integration, and how did they overcome them?
Well the setbacks were you know, enormous! Rachael Robinson told me they bought an apartment … and she used to where Jackie was an exciting player … She used to leave outside the kitchen door for the neighborhood kids. “Ms. Robinson can I have an apple, Ms. Robinson can I have a pear?” “Surely.” There was no signs of anti-black feeling … So Rickey knew of course that he was sending a player … not to Georgia.
What changes in baseball do we still see today that are mostly related to the success of Robinson?
Well most directly is you have a black manager. In time you will have some black executives throughout baseball. Hasn't happened quickly. But he opened up … and he bore up a bit of conscious, and our society took a step forward, and didn’t take that step back.
What other ways does his legacy do we still see today?
There was a time when baseball, like the Supreme Court, and other important American Institutions needed black faces. And when the face was needed, the dark face they came for was Jackie. Suppose he had failed. Suppose he hit .202. I think still … the fact that he was not going to hit .202. He had never been a failure at anything. He was court marshalled in the army. And he was right, and the army was wrong. Football, great success, college … He said once he retired, “I got C’s. In order to keep my scholarship at UCLA, I had to play sports. Ran track, shot baskets, ran the football, whatever they wanted me to do. But mainly it was about Jackie winning games.”